Bob wrote:[color=blue]
> On Thu, 19 May 2005 10:19:36 -0400, Chad Gould
> <theheadcgould11@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:[color=green]
> >Given that the cassava root, a plant that contains a bit more[/color][/color]
cyanide[color=blue][color=green]
> >ppm when mature, is consumed just fine via simple techniques like
> >toasting or fermentation, I'd speculate that the levels of cyanide[/color][/color]
one[color=blue][color=green]
> >is talking about in sorghum beer are so minimal as to actually be a
> >nutrient. :)[/color]
> You are giving advice that could kill someone.
> A knowledgeable user (and that includes those who have routinely
> handled, say, cassava over generations and learned how) will deal[/color]
with[color=blue]
> it. A naive user may or may not; advising them that it is not a
> problem is unwise, and dangerous.[/color]

If one makes a post like "you can preserve foods by canning at home,
the risk of botulism can be minimalized with proper techniques such as
a boiling water bath, etc.", I suppose that too is advice that could
kill someone? *shrug*

I guess that's good, because if you are stupid enough *not* to look up
the basic techniques of throughly cooking / soaking / sun-drying /
fermenting / etc. cassava, and/or knowing what types of food can be
canned with a water bath and what needs pressure cooker canning... you
deserve that painful / deadly lesson. Darwinism works, right?

Methinks the multiple amount of newsgroups, anyways, are causing many
people to go way off topic. The original poster did not mention malted
sorghum at all, however because this was posted in a beer-brewing
newsgroup along with a chemistry newsgroup and a cooking newsgroup, it
somewhat strayed towards gluten-free brewing substances. The main point
was that the cyanide in malted sorghum is insignificant especially
after doing all you do with malted sorghum for brewing purposes.
Cyanide is also insignificant in properly prepared cassava (as plenty
of tapioca pudding lovers can attest). Raw sorghum shoots and raw
cassava tubers, of course, can poison you. No duh.

As far as the original request, I'll be damned why you actually want to
make glucose syrup via enzyme action, except maybe for your own
chemistry amusement. For consumption, the original poster just should
by a huge jug of corn syrup for cheap, since corn syrup is nearly 100%
glucose syrup to begin with.

On 20 May 2005 06:43:27 -0700, [email]electrodevo@gmail.com[/email] wrote:
[color=blue]
>Bob wrote:[color=green]
>> On Thu, 19 May 2005 10:19:36 -0400, Chad Gould
>> <theheadcgould11@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:[color=darkred]
>> >Given that the cassava root, a plant that contains a bit more[/color][/color]
>cyanide[color=green][color=darkred]
>> >ppm when mature, is consumed just fine via simple techniques like
>> >toasting or fermentation, I'd speculate that the levels of cyanide[/color][/color]
>one[color=green][color=darkred]
>> >is talking about in sorghum beer are so minimal as to actually be a
>> >nutrient. :)[/color]
>> You are giving advice that could kill someone.
>> A knowledgeable user (and that includes those who have routinely
>> handled, say, cassava over generations and learned how) will deal[/color]
>with[color=green]
>> it. A naive user may or may not; advising them that it is not a
>> problem is unwise, and dangerous.[/color]
>
>If one makes a post like "you can preserve foods by canning at home,
>the risk of botulism can be minimalized with proper techniques such as
>a boiling water bath, etc.", I suppose that too is advice that could
>kill someone? *shrug*
>[/color]

Your point is well taken. It is a judgment call. Proper techniques for
canning are commonly available in our society. Proper techniques for
dealing with cyanide in plants not commonly handled at home are not so
common. And I must say that I read the post I replied to more as
saying "don't worry about it" than "be sure you know how".

....
[color=blue]
>
>As far as the original request, I'll be damned why you actually want to
>make glucose syrup via enzyme action, except maybe for your own
>chemistry amusement. For consumption, the original poster just should
>by a huge jug of corn syrup for cheap, since corn syrup is nearly 100%
>glucose syrup to begin with.[/color]


Agreed. Or just buy some dextrose and dissolve it.

bob

The original request was about how to make glucose syrup as the person
had food intollerances/allergies. These are to corn and fructose.

Making glucose syrup by either enzymes or acid hydrolsis will leave
protein fragments which a person who is very sensitive to those protein
fragments will still react to.

Then there is the problem of testing to see the level of protein
fragments left behind. As the production of glucose syrup will simplify
the proteins, current commercialy available tests tend to give false
negatives, while the human immune system which can still recognise these
protein fragments and react.

An example is glucose derived from wheat starch, this tests (down to
5ppm) as gluten free, but a significant proportion of coeliacs (people
who react to gluten fragments from wheat and some other grains) still
react to it and it makes them sick.

Bob wrote:[color=blue]
> On 20 May 2005 06:43:27 -0700, [email]electrodevo@gmail.com[/email] wrote:[/color]
[snip][color=blue]
>[color=green]
>>As far as the original request, I'll be damned why you actually want to
>>make glucose syrup via enzyme action, except maybe for your own
>>chemistry amusement. For consumption, the original poster just should
>>by a huge jug of corn syrup for cheap, since corn syrup is nearly 100%
>>glucose syrup to begin with.[/color]
>
>
>
> Agreed. Or just buy some dextrose and dissolve it.
>
> bob
>[/color]

Robert Hinterding <rhh@sillyyak.com.au> writes:
[color=blue]
> Making glucose syrup by either enzymes or acid hydrolsis will leave
> protein fragments which a person who is very sensitive to those
> protein fragments will still react to.[/color]

Sounds like this person is an imaginative nutter.

yes, I have many food intolerances (celiac and that causes other food
intolerances); including corn. So that's why I'm asking about how to
make glucose syrup from, say, tapioca starch or arrowroot starch.

I read on the net that acid hydrolysis of starch isn't done much any more
because the enzyme hydrolysis is more complete - results in more glucose.

I'm asking in beer brewing newsgroups because added amylases are used to
hydrolyse starch sometimes in brewing. The local brewing company sells
amylase enzyme. I don't know what exact situation you would use it in.

For example - how would you keep a solution at 150 F at home, which is the
right temperature for the enzymes to work? I figured home brewers might
do such things?

Somebody said something about hydrolysis producing fructose and fructans
as well. I'm pretty sure it doesn't, from what I've read, starch is a
*glucose* polymer - and when you hydrolyse starch you get glucose,
maltose, dextrins.

Laura

Also, does anybody know where to get the bacterial & fungal alpha and beta
amylase enzymes that are used to make glucose out of starch? I can get
amylase that's extracted from pancreas but I'd rather use the bacterial
and fungal enzymes, they are less likely to cause allergy problems.

Laura

Lacustral wrote:[color=blue]
> yes, I have many food intolerances (celiac and that causes other food
> intolerances); including corn. So that's why I'm asking about how to
> make glucose syrup from, say, tapioca starch or arrowroot starch.[/color]

Of course it can be done, its really a matter of how to do it with
simple equipment, and how difficult the process is.

The other question is - do you need glucose syrup, would sucrose from
sugar cane or sugar beet do?[color=blue]
>
> I read on the net that acid hydrolysis of starch isn't done much any more
> because the enzyme hydrolysis is more complete - results in more glucose.
>[/color]
My understanding is the reverse to what you say, but I have not looked
into it very deeply.
[color=blue]
> I'm asking in beer brewing newsgroups because added amylases are used to
> hydrolyse starch sometimes in brewing. The local brewing company sells
> amylase enzyme. I don't know what exact situation you would use it in.
>[/color]
The thing here is that you need a mixture of enzmymes, each enzyme does
a quite specific job (breaking a certain bond), so to break all the
starch done to monosaccharides you will need a mixture of at least three
enzymes.
[color=blue]
> For example - how would you keep a solution at 150 F at home, which is the
> right temperature for the enzymes to work? I figured home brewers might
> do such things?[/color]

The other thing is that each enzyme has a temperature at which it works
best, so holding it at just one temperature is probably not the best way
to do it.[color=blue]
>
> Somebody said something about hydrolysis producing fructose and fructans
> as well. I'm pretty sure it doesn't, from what I've read, starch is a
> *glucose* polymer - and when you hydrolyse starch you get glucose,
> maltose, dextrins.[/color]

No, I said that mashing (as in brewing) will produce a mixture of
sugars. Also starch you can buy is not pure starch, it contains starch,
cell walls, gums, and some protein. Complete hydrolysis will produce
mainly glucose, but also some other sugars, amino acids, and protein
fragments. Which is why some coeliacs do not tolerate glucose syrup
derived from wheat starch because some protein fragments are still present.

And of course why you want to avoid glucose syrup made from corn.

Robert

Lacustral wrote:[color=blue]
> I'm asking in beer brewing newsgroups because added amylases are used[/color]
to[color=blue]
> hydrolyse starch sometimes in brewing. The local brewing company[/color]
sells[color=blue]
> amylase enzyme. I don't know what exact situation you would use it[/color]
in.

Alpha amylase is the one of the two "critical" enzymes for brewing.
Naturally present in grain, this enzyme at certain temperatures cuts
down the large protein and startch molecules present. These simpler
forms can be digested by the yeast easier. (The other enzyme is beta
amylase.)

In brewing, you typically do a "mash" that hits both enzyme's naturally
active temperature at least part of the time. A typical all-grain
homebrewer might heat the mash (usually via infusions of hot water) to
around 154F -- a temperature in which both enzymes are moderately
active -- and let it soak for an hour. More thorough yields are
obtained by resting at both the beta and the alpha amyl

The only time I've heard alpha amylase being used in homebrewing is
when you overshoot your mash temperature, deactivating the alpha
amylase enzyme. You really need both alpha and beta enzymes working
together, either through the compromise temperature above or via
multi-stage temperature rests.

Just FYI: I Googled and found this book:
[url]http://www.fao.org/icatalog/search/dett.asp?aries_id=7490[/url] -- from the
Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations which details
how to make maltose syrup from cassava starch using cottage methods and
cereal grain enzymes (which the two above are). Hey, it might be more
what you are looking for. It's not glucose syrup. (Though maltase is a
possible enzyme for converting maltase to glucose -- but again, I don't
know what the active ranges are for that.) Either way, such procedures
in this book may be a better way of producing an allergy-free sugar
syrup (which is your purpose, right?) from cassava starch at home.

Further comments: Maybe some of the more scientific folks can comment
on amyloglucosidase aka Beano. This enzyme has been used to make "light
beer", it's very good supposedly at breaking down complex carbs, and
has a better active temperature range (40C or below).

[email]electrodevo@gmail.com[/email] wrote:[color=blue]
>Just FYI: I Googled and found this book:
>[url]http://www.fao.org/icatalog/search/dett.asp?aries_id=7490[/url] -- from the
>Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations which details
>how to make maltose syrup from cassava starch using cottage methods and
>cereal grain enzymes (which the two above are).[/color]

I'm gluten intolerant, so I can't use the cereal grain enzymes. A lot
of saccharification enzymes are from bacteria and fungus which would
probably be OK.
[color=blue]
>Either way, such procedures
>in this book may be a better way of producing an allergy-free sugar
>syrup (which is your purpose, right?)[/color]

yup - from cassava (tapioca) or arrowroot starch. I have a pretty intense
corn allergy by the way - 1/16 of a grain of corn made me severely ill for
several days, and 2 tbsp. of fructose - which has about the same amount of
corn protein - also made me quite sick. Fructose is made from corn syrup,
so I'm quite sure that corn syrup is not OK.
[color=blue]
>Further comments: Maybe some of the more scientific folks can comment
>on amyloglucosidase aka Beano. This enzyme has been used to make "light
>beer", it's very good supposedly at breaking down complex carbs, and
>has a better active temperature range (40C or below).[/color]

That's interesting! I was wondering about Beano :) Easy to get it :)
I have the impression that amylglucosidase is used together with other
amylases, it's the final step after other amylases have been at the
starch.

Laura

On 18 May 2005 14:29:47 GMT, [email]lark@adore.lightlink.com[/email] (Lacustral)
wrote:
[color=blue]
>I'd like to make my own glucose syrup, using enzymes - can somebody help
>me with the process? Apparently you use alpha and beta amylases - they
>use them in beer brewing sometimes, but I might look for amylases
>from bacteria & fungi, rather than the pancreatic enzymes that are (I
>think) used in beer brewing.
>
>I've read that you cook a starch/water mixture, keeping it at 150 F
>somehow (what's a good way to keep a constant temperature?) and at pH
>about 5.5-5.6. I guess i could lower the pH with cream of tartar if
>necessary.
>
>I'm allergic to corn & somewhat fructose intolerant, and syrup
>from starch should have very little fructose in it.[/color]

This is a long thread, and I may have missed something, but some
thoughts...

1. Why not use ordinary sucrose? If your main concern with fructose is
the corn issue, then sucrose -- ordinary table sugar -- should be ok.

2. If you really want something extra-pure, why not get some
pharmaceutical grade glucose (dextrose). Ask your pharmacist. (If you
have connections with someone who works in biological research, you
might check with them, too.)

bob