Are there any rules of thumb or more precise formulas to determine how head
space affects the pressure of co2 when bottling beer?

I'm trying to figure out things like, hypothetically:

If I had a bottle with 12 ounces of beer and 1 ounce of head space what % of
the co2 would be in the beer and what % of the co2 would be in the head
space? If I bottle the beer and prime it with the same amount of sugar but
leave half the head space (1/2 oz) how does the pressure in the bottle
change?

Ultimately I'm wondering, if I leave too little head space, how high can the
pressure in the bottle go to?

Thanks for any info or pointers.

If you leave too little head space in the bottle, the beer will not properly
carbonate. I don't know why, but it won't.

I use a bottle filler and find when it is withdrawn, there is just the
right amount of headspace.

Keep it simple, keep it home made, relax, have a home brew. . . or something
like that.
Jay
"beerburgerandfrieswithbeer"
<beerburgerandfrieswithbeer@beerburgerandfrieswithbeer.com> wrote in message
news:K_idncc9c-dLa5fbnZ2dnUVZ_oGlnZ2d@pghconnect.com...[color=blue]
> Are there any rules of thumb or more precise formulas to determine how[/color]
head[color=blue]
> space affects the pressure of co2 when bottling beer?
>
> I'm trying to figure out things like, hypothetically:
>
> If I had a bottle with 12 ounces of beer and 1 ounce of head space what %[/color]
of[color=blue]
> the co2 would be in the beer and what % of the co2 would be in the head
> space? If I bottle the beer and prime it with the same amount of sugar but
> leave half the head space (1/2 oz) how does the pressure in the bottle
> change?
>
> Ultimately I'm wondering, if I leave too little head space, how high can[/color]
the[color=blue]
> pressure in the bottle go to?
>
> Thanks for any info or pointers.
>
>
>
>[/color]

"Jay Seigfreid" <jseigfreid@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:460b0c1b$0$5770$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...[color=blue]
> If you leave too little head space in the bottle, the beer will not
> properly
> carbonate. I don't know why, but it won't.
>
> I use a bottle filler and find when it is withdrawn, there is just the
> right amount of headspace.
>
> Keep it simple, keep it home made, relax, have a home brew. . . or
> something
> like that.
> Jay[/color]

That my be so. Never tried to find out because I use a filler wand too.
However, I know when filling 5L mini kegs, T-A-D, or Party Pigs, you need to
use about 1/3 less priming sugar to achieve the same results as bottles. I
know the percentage of head space on these containers is smaller than that
of a 12 oz bottle, but I couldn't say if the smaller amount of priming sugar
is due to the larger volume of brew, the smaller percentage of head space,
or a combination of the two.

Mark R

On Thu, 29 Mar 2007 09:05:48 -0500, "Mark R" <mray001@nospam.rr.com>
wrote:
[color=blue]
>
>"Jay Seigfreid" <jseigfreid@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:460b0c1b$0$5770$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...[color=green]
>> If you leave too little head space in the bottle, the beer will not
>> properly
>> carbonate. I don't know why, but it won't.
>>
>> I use a bottle filler and find when it is withdrawn, there is just the
>> right amount of headspace.[/color][/color]

I also use a bottle filler & when filling bottles I try to leave about
as much headspace as in the bottles - whether they be
stubbies 375 ml or tallies 750 ml - as ( I estimate ) there is when i
buy them from the bottleshop. That's worked for me for about
30 years.

I've been kegging for about 15mths now, using 26 litre or 19 litre
soda syphon kegs. When I fill the kegs i try to get as little
headroom as possible as the kegs will be force carbonated [ ie no
priming sugar]. I assume this is the correct way to go.

when bottling a brew i use 2 kegs and 20 to 40 stubbies ( varies due
to which kegs used). Each stubby gets one carbonation drop ( sugar ?
dextrose glob made by the local home brew shop). Tallies require 2
drops.

Years ago i used to use a cafe-bar dispenser bottle to dispense sugar
teaspoon equivalents & i also used spend hours washing bottles
[color=blue][color=green]
>>
>> Keep it simple, keep it home made, relax, have a home brew. . . or
>> something
>> like that.
>> Jay[/color]
>
>That my be so. Never tried to find out because I use a filler wand too.
>However, I know when filling 5L mini kegs, T-A-D, or Party Pigs, you need to
>use about 1/3 less priming sugar to achieve the same results as bottles. I
>know the percentage of head space on these containers is smaller than that
>of a 12 oz bottle, but I couldn't say if the smaller amount of priming sugar
>is due to the larger volume of brew, the smaller percentage of head space,
>or a combination of the two.[/color]

I've had a few explosions over the years <grin>.
One probable cause would be by accidentally doubling the amount of
sugar / dextrose. I think you would have to be in this order of error
to make much difference.

Other causes of explosions ( i guess):
- crud on the bottle neck.
- rust on the bottle cap ( i re-use twist-tops )

[color=blue]
>
>Mark R
>[/color]

hth

Ian C

> "beerburgerandfrieswithbeer"[color=blue]
> <beerburgerandfrieswithbeer@beerburgerandfrieswithbeer.com> wrote in message
> news:K_idncc9c-dLa5fbnZ2dnUVZ_oGlnZ2d@pghconnect.com...
>[color=green]
>>Are there any rules of thumb or more precise formulas to determine how
>> head space affects the pressure of co2 when bottling beer?
>> <snip>[/color]
>Jay Seigfreid wrote:
> If you leave too little head space in the bottle, the beer will not properly
> carbonate. I don't know why, but it won't.
>
> I use a bottle filler and find when it is withdrawn, there is just the
> right amount of headspace.
>
> Keep it simple, keep it home made, relax, have a home brew. . . or something
> like that.[/color]

I've read that this is because the pressure in the bottle builds up too
quickly and inhibits the yeast before they can finish carbonating the beer.

On Tue, 03 Apr 2007 01:01:42 GMT, <beowulf_is_not_here@hotmail.com> wrote:[color=blue][color=green]
>> If you leave too little head space in the bottle, the beer will not properly
>> carbonate. I don't know why, but it won't.[/color]
>
> I've read that this is because the pressure in the bottle builds up too
> quickly and inhibits the yeast before they can finish carbonating the beer.[/color]

MDixon (used to be a regular on here) did some experiments a while ago
along those lines. IIRC, he found that yeast would remain active up until
around 45PSI or so, before they shut down and ceased activity. Can a bottle
take that much pressure? I don't know for sure, but it sounds high. I
would guess that the bottle would blow before the yeast stopped?


John.

John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:[color=blue]
> On Tue, 03 Apr 2007 01:01:42 GMT, <beowulf_is_not_here@hotmail.com> wrote:[color=green][color=darkred]
>>> If you leave too little head space in the bottle, the beer will not properly
>>> carbonate. I don't know why, but it won't.[/color]
>> I've read that this is because the pressure in the bottle builds up too
>> quickly and inhibits the yeast before they can finish carbonating the beer.[/color]
>
> MDixon (used to be a regular on here) did some experiments a while ago
> along those lines. IIRC, he found that yeast would remain active up until
> around 45PSI or so, before they shut down and ceased activity. Can a bottle
> take that much pressure? I don't know for sure, but it sounds high. I
> would guess that the bottle would blow before the yeast stopped?[/color]

I know from an episode of Myth Busters that 3L plastic soda bottles blow
up around 90 PSI. Is it reasonable to expect a glass bottle to hold
more or less?

I don't know. Glass is thicker, but also more brittle. IIRC, the
source for my original statement was one of the Charlie Papazian books.
So he may have been speculating at that point.

On Tue, 03 Apr 2007 20:36:02 GMT, <beowulf_is_not_here@hotmail.com> wrote:[color=blue][color=green]
>> MDixon (used to be a regular on here) did some experiments a while ago
>> along those lines. IIRC, he found that yeast would remain active up until
>> around 45PSI or so, before they shut down and ceased activity. Can a bottle
>> take that much pressure? I don't know for sure, but it sounds high. I
>> would guess that the bottle would blow before the yeast stopped?[/color]
>
> I know from an episode of Myth Busters that 3L plastic soda bottles blow
> up around 90 PSI. Is it reasonable to expect a glass bottle to hold
> more or less?
>
> I don't know. Glass is thicker, but also more brittle. IIRC, the
> source for my original statement was one of the Charlie Papazian books.
> So he may have been speculating at that point.[/color]

Yeah, those PET soda bottles can take a surprising amount of pressure. IMO,
much more than a typical glass beer bottle. Typically, glass becomes "iffy"
at anything higher than around 4 volumes of carbonation... whatever PSI that
works out to.

I could be entirely wrong here, but atmospheric is what... 14PSI? So 4
volumes of carbonation should be something like 4X that, or 56PSI? In that
case... maybe the bottles could take 45PSI and survive.

I've heard lots of theories over the years regarding how (or even if) the
amount of headspace effects carbonation. I've never really seen anything
that has definitively answered the question though. Lots of speculation,
but nothing really concrete.

It does make some sense that an initial burst of pressure build up would
halt yeast activity but... Does the pressure really build up that quickly?
Carbonation by the yeast is generally a relatively slow process. Also, one
would assume that after the initial burst, as the CO2 dissolves into the
beer, that the yeast would resume when the pressure drops back down.


John.

While there are many factors which can inhibit yeast activity: alcohol
content, lack of nutrients, lack of oxygen, pressure as well as
others, at bottling time in beers, it seems that all but the oxygen
requirment are present. Beers don't generally have adequate alcohol,
there's plenty of nutrients left, and at bottling time, pressure is
essentially ambient. Only oxygen is left.

Well, chemistry tells us that there needs to be an adequate supply of
oxygen for CO2 production. After fermentation, the beer has little
available dissolved oxygen left, and the headspace above the beer in
the fermentor is predominantly CO2 already. Some oxygen is made
avialable from the digestion of the priming sugar itself. Fructose
and glucose for instance have six carbon atoms and six oxygen atoms
Maltose and sucrose each have 12 carbons and only 11 oxygens. The
problem is that carbonation uses oxygen at twice the rate of carbon
(ie cabron DI-oxide) so there has to be at least some residual oxygen
available for use in CO2 production.

As a test, I tried with a recent batch of beer taken from the
secondary and most of it was carbonated as usual. A small portion of
it though, I aerated with an oxygen cylinder and stone to introduce
dissolved oxygen into the beer.(Don't get on me about the addition of
oxygen to the beer at this time, it was a test of a theory) Then I
added priming sugar and filled five bottles to the top. Capping
actually squeezed a little beer out of each bottle so I know they were
full. Within a week and a half, three of the bottles had either
ruptured or blown thier tops and I took the remaining two outside to
pop them before my wife tried to kill me for making the basement smell
like an old frat house. It tasted pretty poor, but the carbonatioin
was excellent (over-carbonated actaully). This leads me to conclude
that an adequate headspace must be left as a reservoir of oxygen for
the yeast to use for carbonation.

Not really a conclusive test, but it satisfied my curiosity and that
of my brewing friend who had asked that same question about why
headspace is required.

VK

[email]Daffaed@gmail.com[/email] <Daffaed@gmail.com> wrote:[color=blue]
>While there are many factors which can inhibit yeast activity: alcohol
>content, lack of nutrients, lack of oxygen, pressure as well as
>others, at bottling time in beers, it seems that all but the oxygen
>requirment are present. Beers don't generally have adequate alcohol,
>there's plenty of nutrients left, and at bottling time, pressure is
>essentially ambient. Only oxygen is left.[/color]
[color=blue]
>Well, chemistry tells us that there needs to be an adequate supply of
>oxygen for CO2 production.[/color]

Yes.
[color=blue]
>After fermentation, the beer has little
>available dissolved oxygen left...[/color]

Dissolved oxygen is not what's needed. While free oxygen
certainly helps yeast multiply, it isn't necessary for production
of CO2.
[color=blue]
>Some oxygen is made
>avialable from the digestion of the priming sugar itself. Fructose
>and glucose for instance have six carbon atoms and six oxygen atoms
>Maltose and sucrose each have 12 carbons and only 11 oxygens. The
>problem is that carbonation uses oxygen at twice the rate of carbon
>(ie cabron DI-oxide) so there has to be at least some residual oxygen
>available for use in CO2 production.[/color]

It's not exactly a question of oxygen availability. You
got the first part right, but yeast absolutely doesn't need
free O2, they only have to break the bonds in the sugars
to produce CO2 and ethanol.
[color=blue]
>As a test, I tried with a recent batch of beer taken from the
>secondary and most of it was carbonated as usual. A small portion of
>it though, I aerated with an oxygen cylinder and stone to introduce
>dissolved oxygen into the beer.(Don't get on me about the addition of
>oxygen to the beer at this time, it was a test of a theory) Then I
>added priming sugar and filled five bottles to the top. Capping
>actually squeezed a little beer out of each bottle so I know they were
>full. Within a week and a half, three of the bottles had either
>ruptured or blown thier tops and I took the remaining two outside to
>pop them before my wife tried to kill me for making the basement smell
>like an old frat house. It tasted pretty poor, but the carbonatioin
>was excellent (over-carbonated actaully). This leads me to conclude
>that an adequate headspace must be left as a reservoir of oxygen for
>the yeast to use for carbonation.[/color]

I'm not convinced your conclusion is the only possible
one based on the evidence.
--
Joel Plutchak "They're not people, they're HIPPIES!"
$LASTNAME at VERYWARMmail.com - Eric Cartman