Does anyone have any information about the coldest temperature that is
generally possible with a 'Son of Fermentation' chiller or something
similar that circulates ice-cooled air to chill the fermentation
chamber? 'Son of Ferm.' is shown here: [url]http://tinyurl.com/5r7t4[/url]

Am curious if anyone with such a chiller has ever done, or attempted,
lagering in it, and how it turned out and what sort of problems they
might have had. I've been assuming that it is possible to drop the temp
down to close to freezing in such a chiller, but before I proceed with
modification of my chiller, I suppose it would be helpful to ask about this.

My chiller works on the same principle as 'Son of Ferm.' in that it
cools the fermentation compartment by using a thermostatically
controlled fan to circulate air from a compartment filled with ice; both
compartments are well insulated. My chiller worked very well to keep my
conical down at 70F/21C in a house with temps around 78F, but I never
bothered to try setting it to a very low setting; I never attempted to
go lower because I thought that 70F was the appropriate temp, not
realizing 65F/18C is better.

Now I wish that I would have done an experiment with my conical filled
with just water to see how low it would actually get, but it just never
occurred to me. My current thermostat isn't working, which is one
reason why I'm modifying it and therefore am considering a lower temp
range for lagering, so I can't try it now.

With my limited knowledge, I still _think_ that my chiller should be
capable of lowering the temp close to freezing (or maybe even below),
but for anyone who is thinking of making something like this and is up
to the challenge of doing a bit of calculations, here are the specs:

My chiller is constructed of a wooden frame of 2x2s, covered on the
outside with wood paneling of the sort to finish interior walls (I
believe it is called 'Wainscoat' by some); it has 1.375"/3.5cm of
styrofoam insulation on all sides and top, and half that amount
separating the two compartments. The ice compartment can hold 4 gallons
of ice as either four 1-gallon milk-jugs or eight .5-gallon
juice-containers. Those containers of ice are frozen in a large chest
freezer, and should be in the vicinity of 0F/-18C degrees.
The ambient room temp varies from about 78F/25.5C in the summer to
70F/21C in the winter; the exterior surface area of my chiller 2839
sq.inches/1.83161 sq.meters, including the base which sits on the floor
(280.56 sq.inches/.181006 sq.meters). I don't know how much heat is
generated by fermentation, and I don't know what the air-flow rate is
for my fan, but I'm sure it will complete exchange the air in a minute
or two. The interior volume is about 5,887 cubic inches/96,470 cubic cm
.... or 3.4 cu.ft./.09647 cu.meters. Of course, ice can be changed out
as frequently as needed, but normally I want to tend to it as little as
possible, and not more than once per day.

Cheers, and good brewing to all.

Bill Velek

Monty wrote:

snip
[color=blue]
> ... am currently down to 35F air temp and 39F beer temp. And I still
> have a lot of room to go lower on the thermostat.[/color]

How low does your thermostat setting go? Can you provide details, such
as brand name and model number, and where you acquired it and how much
it cost?

Thanks.

Bill Velek -- remove the "--NO-SPAM--" from my email address

Bill Velek <billvelek--NO-SPAM--@alltel.net> wrote in message news:<LYTZc.321$tT5.310@fe61.usenetserver.com>...[color=blue]
> Monty wrote:
>
> snip
>[color=green]
> > ... am currently down to 35F air temp and 39F beer temp. And I still
> > have a lot of room to go lower on the thermostat.[/color]
>
> How low does your thermostat setting go? Can you provide details, such
> as brand name and model number, and where you acquired it and how much
> it cost?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bill Velek -- remove the "--NO-SPAM--" from my email address[/color]

I got the cheapest bi-metal I could find (Honeywell) at Home Depot, I
think $15. The only thing is, it's for heating only, so the logic is
reversed - it turns on when the temp goes lower. So I had to follow
the instructions on the SOFC website regarding adding a relay into the
circuit (about $3 plus $1.50 for breadboard).

Also, the adjustment lever has stops at each end of its travel, so it
wouldn't normally go low enough. I just cut the stops off with snips.
It can now swing way past what would be freezing, I'm sure.

It collects quite a bit of condensation in the ice chamber, so I
drilled a hole in the bottom and ran a piece of tubing to allow
runoff.

I have seen pretty expensive thermostats that go low on McMaster.com,
but still wonder which one is being used.

Of course, I just spent too much time finding "grommets" at Home
Depot. And I'll be darned if I use that pink 2" insulation.....

Bill Velek <billvelek--NO-SPAM--@alltel.net> wrote in message news:<LYTZc.321$tT5.310@fe61.usenetserver.com>...[color=blue]
> Monty wrote:
>
> snip
>[color=green]
> > ... am currently down to 35F air temp and 39F beer temp. And I still
> > have a lot of room to go lower on the thermostat.[/color]
>
> How low does your thermostat setting go? Can you provide details, such
> as brand name and model number, and where you acquired it and how much
> it cost?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bill Velek -- remove the "--NO-SPAM--" from my email address[/color]

Monty wrote:

snip my question re the thermostat in Son of Fermentation Chiller
[color=blue]
> I got the cheapest bi-metal I could find (Honeywell) at Home Depot, I
> think $15. The only thing is, it's for heating only, so the logic is
> reversed - it turns on when the temp goes lower. So I had to follow
> the instructions on the SOFC website regarding adding a relay into the
> circuit (about $3 plus $1.50 for breadboard).
>
> Also, the adjustment lever has stops at each end of its travel, so it
> wouldn't normally go low enough. I just cut the stops off with snips.
> It can now swing way past what would be freezing, I'm sure.[/color]

Thanks for the info, but I'm going to try to rig up something different
-- mainly so that I can control and monitor the temp from the outside of
my chiller -- which means a probe (at least one) and probably something
digital.[color=blue]
>
> It collects quite a bit of condensation in the ice chamber, so I
> drilled a hole in the bottom and ran a piece of tubing to allow
> runoff.[/color]

Hmmm. I never noticed that much, but perhaps it was because of my
particular design. And for what relatively small amount that there was,
I just have my ice containers sitting on a tray and I use a cloth or
sponge to wipe up the condensation.

Cheers.

Bill Velek -- remove the "--NO-SPAM--" from my email address

Duncan McQueen wrote:
[color=blue]
> I have seen pretty expensive thermostats that go low on McMaster.com,
> but still wonder which one is being used.[/color]

I'll check it out.
[color=blue]
> Of course, I just spent too much time finding "grommets" at Home
> Depot. And I'll be darned if I use that pink 2" insulation.....[/color]

Grommets?? You don't need no stinkin' grommets. ;-) I assume that
the grommets are for something different than a chiller or brewing beer.

When I built my chiller, I used a sheet of white styrofoam which cut
very easily. Pink? Are you speaking about spun-fiber-glass batting?
I'm not much of a handyman, so I don't go to those places too often.

Cheers.

Bill Velek -- remove the "--NO-SPAM--" from my email address

The grommets are for the wood pole (dolly?) and the pink stuff is pink
styrofoam - from the same company that makes the spun fiberglass
stuff...


Bill Velek <billvelek--NO-SPAM--@alltel.net> wrote in message news:<cC3_c.1031$lM5.926@fe39.usenetserver.com>...[color=blue]
> Duncan McQueen wrote:
>[color=green]
> > I have seen pretty expensive thermostats that go low on McMaster.com,
> > but still wonder which one is being used.[/color]
>
> I'll check it out.
>[color=green]
> > Of course, I just spent too much time finding "grommets" at Home
> > Depot. And I'll be darned if I use that pink 2" insulation.....[/color]
>
> Grommets?? You don't need no stinkin' grommets. ;-) I assume that
> the grommets are for something different than a chiller or brewing beer.
>
> When I built my chiller, I used a sheet of white styrofoam which cut
> very easily. Pink? Are you speaking about spun-fiber-glass batting?
> I'm not much of a handyman, so I don't go to those places too often.
>
> Cheers.
>
> Bill Velek -- remove the "--NO-SPAM--" from my email address[/color]

Bill Velek <billvelek--NO-SPAM--@alltel.net> wrote in message news:<cC3_c.1031$lM5.926@fe39.usenetserver.com>...[color=blue]
> Grommets?? You don't need no stinkin' grommets. ;-) I assume that
> the grommets are for something different than a chiller or brewing beer.
>
> When I built my chiller, I used a sheet of white styrofoam which cut
> very easily. Pink? Are you speaking about spun-fiber-glass batting?
> I'm not much of a handyman, so I don't go to those places too often.[/color]

I think the grommets were to somehow lock the top and front panels
using some kind of pins. I just put an empty carboy on top to keep it
sealed.

The pink 2" is real nice high density rigid polystyrene. It doesn't
crumble like the white bead-board.

A Ranco or other controller would certainly work great to control the
temp from the outside - at a cost of about three times what all the
other components were. Slight overkill for an icepack-driven chiller!
Of course, once you have that, you're half way to getting a used
fridge and having a real fermentation chiller!

There's many ways to skin a cat, many ways to chill a lager. Hope
your's tastes as good as I know mine will. Cheers!

In article <23c99396.0409031937.39ed415d@posting.google.com>,
[email]paul@mantovani.com[/email] says...[color=blue]
> Bill Velek <billvelek--NO-SPAM--@alltel.net> wrote in message news:<cC3_c.1031$lM5.926@fe39.usenetserver.com>...[color=green]
> > Grommets?? You don't need no stinkin' grommets. ;-) I assume that
> > the grommets are for something different than a chiller or brewing beer.
> >
> > When I built my chiller, I used a sheet of white styrofoam which cut
> > very easily. Pink? Are you speaking about spun-fiber-glass batting?
> > I'm not much of a handyman, so I don't go to those places too often.[/color]
>
> I think the grommets were to somehow lock the top and front panels
> using some kind of pins. I just put an empty carboy on top to keep it
> sealed.
>
> The pink 2" is real nice high density rigid polystyrene. It doesn't
> crumble like the white bead-board.
>
> A Ranco or other controller would certainly work great to control the
> temp from the outside - at a cost of about three times what all the
> other components were. Slight overkill for an icepack-driven chiller!
> Of course, once you have that, you're half way to getting a used
> fridge and having a real fermentation chiller!
>
> There's many ways to skin a cat, many ways to chill a lager. Hope
> your's tastes as good as I know mine will. Cheers!
>[/color]
I use the pink 2" polystyrene. One 4'x8'sheet gave me everything I
needed, which made it convenient to use. It also holds the temps
exceedingly well, although I'll admit that I caulked the living hell out
of every joint, and I do not have a removable front panel on mine. I
figure I can lift a carboy over a wall.

I use a cheap Wal-Mart-obtained Hunter digital thermostat for mine. I DO
keep the thermostat inside the SOFC. To monitor temps, I have a small
digital indoor/outdoor thermometer sitting on top of the thing. To
change temps, it's a 10 second process, so it really isn't that
inconvenient for me to keep the thermostat inside. I use Velcro tape to
hold down the top, combined with cutting it ever so slightly oversized
so I have to force it down. I maintain temps well enough that once
fermentation has slowed in primary, it goes hours without budging even a
tenth of a degree.

My cheap thermostat goes to 40 degrees. I've not yet tried to lager with
it, so I don't know if it'll obtain that with only two one-gallon jugs
of ice. I see no reason to believe it wouldn't, though.

All told, I have far, far less than $100 in parts. In an apartment where
I really can't keep a spare fridge or chest freezer, this was my best
alternative.
--

---
John
---
Please remove all "stains" from e-mail address before replying
---
Animal testing is a bad idea -
they get all nervous and give the wrong answers.

Monty wrote:
snip[color=blue]
> I think the grommets were to somehow lock the top and front panels
> using some kind of pins. I just put an empty carboy on top to keep it
> sealed.[/color]

I see; well, I'm not that familiar with those chillers, so I didn't
recall the grommets.
[color=blue]
> The pink 2" is real nice high density rigid polystyrene. It doesn't
> crumble like the white bead-board.[/color]

My white bead-board doesn't get much exposure or handling, so I have no
problem with crumbling. The exterior of my chiller is wood-paneling on
the front and sides, and heavy corrugated cardboard in the back.
[color=blue]
> A Ranco or other controller would certainly work great to control the
> temp from the outside - at a cost of about three times what all the
> other components were. Slight overkill for an icepack-driven chiller!
> Of course, once you have that, you're half way to getting a used
> fridge and having a real fermentation chiller![/color]

Well, I started out making a frame to hold my conical that my in-laws
gave me as a Christmas gift, and since I couldn't figure a way to use
evaporative cooling, I decided to enclose and insulate it, and chill it
in a similar fashion to the Son of Fermentation Chiller. Aside from
that, I really don't have a place to put a chest-freezer that would get
the stamp of approval from my wife right now. Plus a chest-freezer is
not tall enough for my conical. Likewise with a refrigerator --
difficult to find a place for a great big frig that can hold just a
single conical.
[color=blue]
> There's many ways to skin a cat, many ways to chill a lager. Hope
> your's tastes as good as I know mine will. Cheers![/color]

My chiller will be a good way for me to make and try a lager before
investing in more equipment.

Bill Velek -- remove the "--NO-SPAM--" from my email address