"Dan Listermann" <dan@listermann.com> wrote in message
news:ve1o5caq1umr80@corp.supernews.com...[color=blue][color=green]
>>[/color]
> Checking into water content of honey, the references I found said that[/color]
honey[color=blue]
> contains between 17 to 21% water. My measured number worked out to 20.65%
> using 46 as 100%. It is highly doubtful that differences between sugars[/color]
are[color=blue]
> going to produce anything like the difference between 36.5 and 42. Might[/color]
I[color=blue]
> suggest that the references sighting 42 are in error and that their[/color]
failing[color=blue]
> my sanity test was justified.[/color]

Hi Dan:

I hate to disagree with you but here in the great white north (Ontario,
Canada) I get 42 on most of my honeys(Acacia, Basswood, Wildflower,
Thyme) -checked with my refractometer and verified with my hydrometer. I
suspect that the varience has something to do with the diference in local
honey composition.
Maurice

"Maurice St. Aude" <bludrgn@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:346571bf5cf7c9276e1940a487d8ed60@free.teranews.com...
Might[color=blue]
> I[color=green]
> > suggest that the references sighting 42 are in error and that their[/color]
> failing[color=green]
> > my sanity test was justified.[/color]
>
> Hi Dan:
>
> I hate to disagree with you but here in the great white north (Ontario,
> Canada) I get 42 on most of my honeys(Acacia, Basswood, Wildflower,
> Thyme) -checked with my refractometer and verified with my hydrometer. I
> suspect that the varience has something to do with the diference in local
> honey composition.[/color]

46 - 42 = 4 points

4 / 46 * 100 = 8.7 % water. I deeply doubt that any sugar with that water
content will still be liquid. Malted barley is , what, typically 4% water?
Carapils even more.

Weigh out a pound of cane sugar and add about three tablespoons of water. I
am not sure it will be sticky, much less flow. I doubt that honey has
magical properties that allow it to be a liquid with very little water.

Dan Listermann

Check out our E-tail site at [url]www.listermann.com[/url]

Free shipping for orders greater than $35
and East of the Mighty Miss.

[color=blue]
>
> "Dan Listermann" <dan@listermann.com> wrote in message
> news:ve1o5caq1umr80@corp.supernews.com...[color=green][color=darkred]
> >>[/color]
> > Checking into water content of honey, the references I found said that[/color]
> honey[color=green]
> > contains between 17 to 21% water. My measured number worked out to[/color][/color]
20.65%[color=blue][color=green]
> > using 46 as 100%. It is highly doubtful that differences between sugars[/color]
> are[color=green]
> > going to produce anything like the difference between 36.5 and 42.>[/color][/color]
Maurice[color=blue]
>
>[/color]

"Maurice St. Aude" <bludrgn@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:ae65bc7a25e5bae2109c5159add8fd71@free.teranews.com...
[color=blue]
> In theory you are right but... these are the measurements that I have[/color]
taken.[color=blue]
> Can you suggest a better way to take the reading? I'm all for improving my
> final product, and if there are more accurate reading out there I want[/color]
them.[color=blue]
> I agree that something in the 30s sounds much more reasonable, that's why[/color]
I[color=blue]
> checked it in the first place. The Home Brewer's Companion lists honey at
> between 30 and 35 - so my question is what is the best way to measure[/color]
these[color=blue]
> readings. What is the best tool for the job, and what do they cost?[/color]

I have a hydrometer that reads in .0005 graduations and a scale that is
graduated in hundredths of a pound. Being used commercially, the scale is
inspected twice a year by the County.

I weighed the empty container, weighed it with honey and weighed it with the
added water. This gave me the weight of the honey and the weight of the
solution. The honey was thoroughly dissolved into the solution and cooled
to about 60 F. A hydrometer reading was taken.

I took the weight of the solution and divided it by 8.345 pounds per gallon
and then divided it by the gravity of the solution to get the volume of the
solution. Multiplying this volume by the "points"of the gravity gave me the
points in solution. Dividing the points by the weight of the honey used
gave me the points per pound per gallon.

--
Dan Listermann

Check out our E-tail site at [url]www.listermann.com[/url]

Free shipping for orders greater than $35
and East of the Mighty Miss.

[color=blue]
>
> "Dan Listermann" <dan@listermann.com> wrote in message
> news:vfghoid6pus430@corp.supernews.com...[color=green]
> > 46 - 42 = 4 points
> >
> > 4 / 46 * 100 = 8.7 % water. I deeply doubt that any sugar with that[/color][/color]
water[color=blue][color=green]
> > content will still be liquid. Malted barley is , what, typically 4%[/color]
> water?[color=green]
> > Carapils even more.
> >
> > Weigh out a pound of cane sugar and add about three tablespoons of[/color][/color]
water.[color=blue]
> I[color=green]
> > am not sure it will be sticky, much less flow. I doubt that honey has
> > magical properties that allow it to be a liquid with very little water.[/color]
>
> Ok Dan:
>
>
>[/color]

"Dan Listermann" <dan@listermann.com> wrote in message news:<vfghoid6pus430@corp.supernews.com>...[color=blue]
> "Maurice St. Aude" <bludrgn@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:346571bf5cf7c9276e1940a487d8ed60@free.teranews.com...
> Might[color=green]
> > I[color=darkred]
> > > suggest that the references sighting 42 are in error and that their[/color][/color]
> failing[color=green][color=darkred]
> > > my sanity test was justified.[/color]
> >
> > Hi Dan:
> >
> > I hate to disagree with you but here in the great white north (Ontario,
> > Canada) I get 42 on most of my honeys(Acacia, Basswood, Wildflower,
> > Thyme) -checked with my refractometer and verified with my hydrometer. I
> > suspect that the varience has something to do with the diference in local
> > honey composition.[/color]
>
> 46 - 42 = 4 points
>
> 4 / 46 * 100 = 8.7 % water. I deeply doubt that any sugar with that water
> content will still be liquid. Malted barley is , what, typically 4% water?
> Carapils even more.
>
> Weigh out a pound of cane sugar and add about three tablespoons of water. I
> am not sure it will be sticky, much less flow. I doubt that honey has
> magical properties that allow it to be a liquid with very little water.
>
> Dan Listermann
>
> Check out our E-tail site at [url]www.listermann.com[/url]
>
> Free shipping for orders greater than $35
> and East of the Mighty Miss.
>
>[color=green]
> >
> > "Dan Listermann" <dan@listermann.com> wrote in message
> > news:ve1o5caq1umr80@corp.supernews.com...[color=darkred]
> > >>
> > > Checking into water content of honey, the references I found said that[/color][/color]
> honey[color=green][color=darkred]
> > > contains between 17 to 21% water. My measured number worked out to[/color][/color]
> 20.65%[color=green][color=darkred]
> > > using 46 as 100%. It is highly doubtful that differences between sugars[/color][/color]
> are[color=green][color=darkred]
> > > going to produce anything like the difference between 36.5 and 42.>[/color][/color]
> Maurice[color=green]
> >
> >[/color][/color]



Cane sugar is almost pure sucrose. (99.9%) Honey is not. For the
sugar solution to get rid of that last little bit of water the sugars
need to form crystals. Now, for that to happen the sugar molecules
have to form nice neat structures. Pure sucrose does that easily it
is like making a brick wall. I think the highest concentration of
sucrose you can get in solution is something around 73%. After that
the sucrose in solution is just way to crowded and crystals will form.

Now, if you add some other sugars into the solution suddenly you have
a much different compliment of "bricks". Really it is analogous to
building a wall out of bricks compared to building one out of river
rocks, and you do not get to use mortar.

When you consider the water content of fairly pure sugars like corn
sugar which is dry and still has about 9-10% water in it, or even malt
extract which is fairly pure maltose, you will see solids form at much
mower concentrations than with somthing as complex as honey.

Now, with that being said, most honey you will find will get you
nowhere near 42 ppg. Generally it is around 17% water, but I do
believe it is possible to make a sugar solution that will stay liquid
at high (~90% sugar)concentrations.

"Droopy" <Droopy68516@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:326dad34.0306240939.4f38f27c@posting.google.com...[color=blue]
> Now, with that being said, most honey you will find will get you
> nowhere near 42 ppg. Generally it is around 17% water, but I do
> believe it is possible to make a sugar solution that will stay liquid
> at high (~90% sugar)concentrations.[/color]

I would have to believe that any such honey would be highly unstable at room
temperatures. The honey we have in the store - about 36 ppppg - will
crystallize eventually at room temperature. When the bucket empties we
sometimes heat up the crystals to blend the reliquified honey in with the
next batch.
--
Dan Listermann

Check out our E-tail site at [url]www.listermann.com[/url]

Free shipping for orders greater than $35
and East of the Mighty Miss.

[color=blue]
> "Dan Listermann" <dan@listermann.com> wrote in message[/color]
news:<vfghoid6pus430@corp.supernews.com>...[color=blue][color=green]
> > "Maurice St. Aude" <bludrgn@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > news:346571bf5cf7c9276e1940a487d8ed60@free.teranews.com...
> > Might[color=darkred]
> > > I
> > > > suggest that the references sighting 42 are in error and that their[/color]
> > failing[color=darkred]
> > > > my sanity test was justified.
> > >
> > > Hi Dan:
> > >
> > > I hate to disagree with you but here in the great white north[/color][/color][/color]
(Ontario,[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> > > Canada) I get 42 on most of my honeys(Acacia, Basswood, Wildflower,
> > > Thyme) -checked with my refractometer and verified with my hydrometer.[/color][/color][/color]
I[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> > > suspect that the varience has something to do with the diference in[/color][/color][/color]
local[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> > > honey composition.[/color]
> >
> > 46 - 42 = 4 points
> >
> > 4 / 46 * 100 = 8.7 % water. I deeply doubt that any sugar with that[/color][/color]
water[color=blue][color=green]
> > content will still be liquid. Malted barley is , what, typically 4%[/color][/color]
water?[color=blue][color=green]
> > Carapils even more.
> >
> > Weigh out a pound of cane sugar and add about three tablespoons of[/color][/color]
water. I[color=blue][color=green]
> > am not sure it will be sticky, much less flow. I doubt that honey has
> > magical properties that allow it to be a liquid with very little water.
> >
> > Dan Listermann
> >
> > Check out our E-tail site at [url]www.listermann.com[/url]
> >
> > Free shipping for orders greater than $35
> > and East of the Mighty Miss.
> >
> >[color=darkred]
> > >
> > > "Dan Listermann" <dan@listermann.com> wrote in message
> > > news:ve1o5caq1umr80@corp.supernews.com...
> > > >>
> > > > Checking into water content of honey, the references I found said[/color][/color][/color]
that[color=blue][color=green]
> > honey[color=darkred]
> > > > contains between 17 to 21% water. My measured number worked out to[/color]
> > 20.65%[color=darkred]
> > > > using 46 as 100%. It is highly doubtful that differences between[/color][/color][/color]
sugars[color=blue][color=green]
> > are[color=darkred]
> > > > going to produce anything like the difference between 36.5 and 42.>[/color]
> > Maurice[color=darkred]
> > >
> > >[/color][/color]
>
>
>
> Cane sugar is almost pure sucrose. (99.9%) Honey is not. For the
> sugar solution to get rid of that last little bit of water the sugars
> need to form crystals. Now, for that to happen the sugar molecules
> have to form nice neat structures. Pure sucrose does that easily it
> is like making a brick wall. I think the highest concentration of
> sucrose you can get in solution is something around 73%. After that
> the sucrose in solution is just way to crowded and crystals will form.
>
> Now, if you add some other sugars into the solution suddenly you have
> a much different compliment of "bricks". Really it is analogous to
> building a wall out of bricks compared to building one out of river
> rocks, and you do not get to use mortar.
>
> When you consider the water content of fairly pure sugars like corn
> sugar which is dry and still has about 9-10% water in it, or even malt
> extract which is fairly pure maltose, you will see solids form at much
> mower concentrations than with somthing as complex as honey.
>[/color]

Crossposting is the root of all evils. Please note that there is one NG in
your list that does not mention "brewing" or "making." Thanks.


"Maurice St. Aude" <bludrgn@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:ae65bc7a25e5bae2109c5159add8fd71@free.teranews.com...[color=blue]
>
> "Dan Listermann" <dan@listermann.com> wrote in message
> news:vfghoid6pus430@corp.supernews.com...[color=green]
> > 46 - 42 = 4 points
> >
> > 4 / 46 * 100 = 8.7 % water. I deeply doubt that any sugar with that[/color][/color]
water[color=blue][color=green]
> > content will still be liquid. Malted barley is , what, typically 4%[/color]
> water?[color=green]
> > Carapils even more.
> >
> > Weigh out a pound of cane sugar and add about three tablespoons of[/color][/color]
water.[color=blue]
> I[color=green]
> > am not sure it will be sticky, much less flow. I doubt that honey has
> > magical properties that allow it to be a liquid with very little water.[/color]
>
> Ok Dan:
>
> In theory you are right but... these are the measurements that I have[/color]
taken.[color=blue]
> Can you suggest a better way to take the reading? I'm all for improving my
> final product, and if there are more accurate reading out there I want[/color]
them.[color=blue]
> I agree that something in the 30s sounds much more reasonable, that's why[/color]
I[color=blue]
> checked it in the first place. The Home Brewer's Companion lists honey at
> between 30 and 35 - so my question is what is the best way to measure[/color]
these[color=blue]
> readings. What is the best tool for the job, and what do they cost?
>
>[/color]

"Dan Listermann" <dan@listermann.com> wrote in message news:<vfh4qblscsoi0e@corp.supernews.com>...[color=blue]
> "Droopy" <Droopy68516@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:326dad34.0306240939.4f38f27c@posting.google.com...[color=green]
> > Now, with that being said, most honey you will find will get you
> > nowhere near 42 ppg. Generally it is around 17% water, but I do
> > believe it is possible to make a sugar solution that will stay liquid
> > at high (~90% sugar)concentrations.[/color]
>
> I would have to believe that any such honey would be highly unstable at room
> temperatures. The honey we have in the store - about 36 ppppg - will
> crystallize eventually at room temperature. When the bucket empties we
> sometimes heat up the crystals to blend the reliquified honey in with the
> next batch.
> --
> Dan Listermann[/color]


You are right, I have seen sugar crystals form in honey.
Thermodynamically though it is hard for them to do so and it does take
a while. The honey I have seen it in was sitting on my parents stove
for several years.