Boiling The Malt

S

Someone

Guest
I kicked of a brew a couple of days ago and used just malt instead of
brewing sugar.
the guy at the store said that i could just add the malt straight to the
mix, just like you do with brewing sugar. although the fermentation took
about 36 hours to start, and has seemed to stop after about 12 hours. the
original gravity was 1040 and now it is at 1018, the brew is a Burton Ale.

QUESTION
Every recipe i see on the web says to boil the dry malt extract. does this
boiling have something to do with the fermentation process or is it just
some flavour thing?

i have use malt before but useally i use a 50/50 mix with dextrose, and i
just add the whole lot to the fermentor.

Recipe (if this helps)

1 tin Bacchus & Barley Burton Ale
200g dry dark malt extract
800g dry light malt extract
23 ltr water

Method:
1. boil 2 lt of water add to fermentator
2. Add tin to fermentator, mix well,
3. Add Malt.
4. Add remaining cold water (21 lt)
5. wait to cool to 18 - 24 digrees C and add yeast.

Regards
Mark
 
D

default

Guest
On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 11:34:07 +1100, "Someone" <Someone@Somewhere.com>
wrote:

>I kicked of a brew a couple of days ago and used just malt instead of
>brewing sugar.
>the guy at the store said that i could just add the malt straight to the
>mix, just like you do with brewing sugar. although the fermentation took
>about 36 hours to start, and has seemed to stop after about 12 hours. the
>original gravity was 1040 and now it is at 1018, the brew is a Burton Ale.
>
>QUESTION
>Every recipe i see on the web says to boil the dry malt extract. does this
>boiling have something to do with the fermentation process or is it just
>some flavour thing?
>

No. It is just to dissolve the DME and will kill any wild yeast that
may be present. Most of us are adding hops during the boil for
bitter, flavor and aroma, as well as finings, flavorings etc.. You
are doing what is called "no boil?" Typically mix a couple of cans of
hopped malt with warm/hot water and add to fermeter and then pitch the
yeast.

All malt beer is better, in my opinion than, using some malt for
flavor and trying to make up the alcohol with some less expensive
sugar.

36 hours to start fermentation is a little on the long side. Faster
is better. Did you pitch a dry yeast onto an 18 degree unmixed un
aerated wort?

Read up on the care and treatment of yeast. You can pitch the yeast
at temperatures higher than 20, particularly if the ambient
temperature is low. Ale yeast likes higher temps, lagers lower. The
yeast will raise the temperature of the wort when it starts
reproducing.

You can pitch dry yeast or just dump a vial of liquid yeast in the
wort - but the yeast will be much happier if you start them off
rehydrating and reproducing several hours before pitching.

The choices are minimum effort or best beer. You determine your
goals in that respect.

You don't mention mixing the remaining water with the concentrated
wort. The wort has a higher specific gravity and (even if much warmer
than the water) will sink to the bottom of the fermenter. It needs to
be mixed very thoroughly.

Pitch a dry yeast on unmixed wort and water and you will have slow
fermentation - the water at the top will rehydrate the yeast but won't
provide any nutrients, the wort at the bottom may be too sweet for the
yeast. Eventually, the yeast will start working and mix it for you .
.. .

The baby yeastlets have a voracious appetite for oxygen and the wort
and water must be well aerated for the yeast to take off. That is the
only time you want oxygen in your wort - but it very important to the
yeast. You don't mention any effort at aeration.

Yeast should be coddled and nurtured; give it a good head start and
it will give you great beer. The idea is to get the yeast you pitch
to take off before bacteria or wild yeast can get established in the
wort. From final mixing and pitching to vigorous fermentation - 5
hours is very good 12 hours OK.

Brewing day (for me) begins with the yeast. Liquid or dry. I prepare
a starter solution of weak wort (~20 ounces water, heaping tablespoon
of DME or yeast starter, boiled in a small covered saucepan). I
usually end up letting it boil over - but no matter. I move the sauce
pan to a cold surface and let it cool, covered, to ~25-30 C .

I pitch the yeast in that (scatter the dry yeast on the surface and
don't mix, add the liquid and do mix). Then I forget its there for a
few hours - washing bottles steeping grains etc.. I check it for
froth (tells me its active). The yeast is the last thing to go into
the fermenter and only when the wort is well aerated and mixed; then
I pitch my starter solution to the carboy and rock it to mix the
starter in. I pitch 8-12 hours total after first starting the yeast.

It isn't necessary to give it this much care - but it isn't really a
lot of effort and great beer is my only goal.

You can also tell a lot about the yeast by sniffing it after it is
started. Really bad yeast may have a slight rotten meat odor,
mistreated yeast (too hot a starter is one way, too old, etc.) a sour
odor - happy yeast has a rich yeasty odor.


>i have use malt before but useally i use a 50/50 mix with dextrose, and i
>just add the whole lot to the fermentor.
>
>Recipe (if this helps)
>
>1 tin Bacchus & Barley Burton Ale
>200g dry dark malt extract
>800g dry light malt extract
>23 ltr water
>
>Method:
>1. boil 2 lt of water add to fermentator
>2. Add tin to fermentator, mix well,
>3. Add Malt.
>4. Add remaining cold water (21 lt)
>5. wait to cool to 18 - 24 digrees C and add yeast.
>
>Regards
>Mark
>
 
A

Al Klein

Guest
On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 10:12:03 -0500, default <none@defaulter.net> said
in alt.beer.home-brewing:

>On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 11:34:07 +1100, "Someone" <Someone@Somewhere.com>
>wrote:


Good post. I might just add that allowing the wort to cool on its
own, which seems to be what "Someone" is doing, doesn't give much of a
cold break, and can lead to wild yeast or bacterial infection. Wort
should be cooled to pitching temperature as fast as possible. Not
quickly - FAST. In the winter, if we've had a good snowfall, I put
the boil pot into a snowbank for cooling. I can cool 5 US gallons
down to 20 degrees C in much less than 10 minutes when ambient is
below freezing.
 
S

Someone

Guest
"default" <none@defaulter.net> wrote in message
news:8vhb21tq9qnjrhg9l0ccsh1es6k5glc1eq@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 11:34:07 +1100, "Someone" <Someone@Somewhere.com>
> wrote:
>
>>I kicked of a brew a couple of days ago and used just malt instead of
>>brewing sugar.
>>the guy at the store said that i could just add the malt straight to the
>>mix, just like you do with brewing sugar. although the fermentation took
>>about 36 hours to start, and has seemed to stop after about 12 hours. the
>>original gravity was 1040 and now it is at 1018, the brew is a Burton Ale.
>>
>>QUESTION
>>Every recipe i see on the web says to boil the dry malt extract. does
>>this
>>boiling have something to do with the fermentation process or is it just
>>some flavour thing?
>>

> No. It is just to dissolve the DME and will kill any wild yeast that
> may be present. Most of us are adding hops during the boil for
> bitter, flavor and aroma, as well as finings, flavorings etc.. You
> are doing what is called "no boil?" Typically mix a couple of cans of
> hopped malt with warm/hot water and add to fermeter and then pitch the
> yeast.
>
> All malt beer is better, in my opinion than, using some malt for
> flavor and trying to make up the alcohol with some less expensive
> sugar.
>
> 36 hours to start fermentation is a little on the long side. Faster
> is better. Did you pitch a dry yeast onto an 18 degree unmixed un
> aerated wort?


The starting temp was 24 degrees, i do have a big spoon to mix the contents,
but it doesn't aerated much.
i saw a smilular posting on this subject and a guy said to use a nice big
whisk, so i'll give that a wearl.


>
> Read up on the care and treatment of yeast. You can pitch the yeast
> at temperatures higher than 20, particularly if the ambient
> temperature is low. Ale yeast likes higher temps, lagers lower. The
> yeast will raise the temperature of the wort when it starts
> reproducing.


i'm glad you mentioned this i'm about to kick of a larger
>
> You can pitch dry yeast or just dump a vial of liquid yeast in the
> wort - but the yeast will be much happier if you start them off
> rehydrating and reproducing several hours before pitching.
>
> The choices are minimum effort or best beer. You determine your
> goals in that respect.
>
> You don't mention mixing the remaining water with the concentrated
> wort. The wort has a higher specific gravity and (even if much warmer
> than the water) will sink to the bottom of the fermenter. It needs to
> be mixed very thoroughly.
>
> Pitch a dry yeast on unmixed wort and water and you will have slow
> fermentation - the water at the top will rehydrate the yeast but won't
> provide any nutrients, the wort at the bottom may be too sweet for the
> yeast. Eventually, the yeast will start working and mix it for you .
> . .
>
> The baby yeastlets have a voracious appetite for oxygen and the wort
> and water must be well aerated for the yeast to take off. That is the
> only time you want oxygen in your wort - but it very important to the
> yeast. You don't mention any effort at aeration.
>
> Yeast should be coddled and nurtured; give it a good head start and
> it will give you great beer. The idea is to get the yeast you pitch
> to take off before bacteria or wild yeast can get established in the
> wort. From final mixing and pitching to vigorous fermentation - 5
> hours is very good 12 hours OK.
>
> Brewing day (for me) begins with the yeast. Liquid or dry. I prepare
> a starter solution of weak wort (~20 ounces water, heaping tablespoon
> of DME or yeast starter, boiled in a small covered saucepan). I
> usually end up letting it boil over - but no matter. I move the sauce
> pan to a cold surface and let it cool, covered, to ~25-30 C .
>
> I pitch the yeast in that (scatter the dry yeast on the surface and
> don't mix, add the liquid and do mix). Then I forget its there for a
> few hours - washing bottles steeping grains etc.. I check it for
> froth (tells me its active). The yeast is the last thing to go into
> the fermenter and only when the wort is well aerated and mixed; then
> I pitch my starter solution to the carboy and rock it to mix the
> starter in. I pitch 8-12 hours total after first starting the yeast.
>

let me make sure i got this right,
you make a mini brew which you put your yeast in when the temp is right,
then once the yeast is active you add the mini brew to the big brew.
Have i got the concept right?


> It isn't necessary to give it this much care - but it isn't really a
> lot of effort and great beer is my only goal.
>
> You can also tell a lot about the yeast by sniffing it after it is
> started. Really bad yeast may have a slight rotten meat odor,
> mistreated yeast (too hot a starter is one way, too old, etc.) a sour
> odor - happy yeast has a rich yeasty odor.
>
>
>>i have use malt before but useally i use a 50/50 mix with dextrose, and i
>>just add the whole lot to the fermentor.
>>
>>Recipe (if this helps)
>>
>>1 tin Bacchus & Barley Burton Ale
>>200g dry dark malt extract
>>800g dry light malt extract
>>23 ltr water
>>
>>Method:
>>1. boil 2 lt of water add to fermentator
>>2. Add tin to fermentator, mix well,
>>3. Add Malt.
>>4. Add remaining cold water (21 lt)
>>5. wait to cool to 18 - 24 digrees C and add yeast.
>>
>>Regards
>>Mark
>>

>
 
A

Al Klein

Guest
On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 15:17:09 +1100, "Someone" <Someone@Somewhere.com>
said in alt.beer.home-brewing:

>i'm glad you mentioned this i'm about to kick of a larger


If you don't have some kind of cooler (converted fridge with temp
controller, etc.), don't even think of doing a lager. You have to
lower the temp slowly, day by day, to get a lager right. There are so
many ale styles, you can keep busy for years just learning ales.

>let me make sure i got this right,
>you make a mini brew which you put your yeast in when the temp is right,
>then once the yeast is active you add the mini brew to the big brew.
>Have i got the concept right?


Yep. It can sit in the mini brew for a couple of hours, though. It
should get nice and foamy, and it should smell yeasty - like fresh
bread. (Boil whatever you're going to grow it in, though. Sanitizing
is everything.)
 
D

default

Guest
On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 22:44:20 GMT, Al Klein <rukbat@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 10:12:03 -0500, default <none@defaulter.net> said
>in alt.beer.home-brewing:
>
>>On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 11:34:07 +1100, "Someone" <Someone@Somewhere.com>
>>wrote:

>
>Good post. I might just add that allowing the wort to cool on its
>own, which seems to be what "Someone" is doing, doesn't give much of a
>cold break, and can lead to wild yeast or bacterial infection. Wort
>should be cooled to pitching temperature as fast as possible. Not
>quickly - FAST. In the winter, if we've had a good snowfall, I put
>the boil pot into a snowbank for cooling. I can cool 5 US gallons
>down to 20 degrees C in much less than 10 minutes when ambient is
>below freezing.


Ditto that, cooling the wort quickly is the thing to do.

I guess I've been reading too many of these "no boil" instructions. I
want to try it myself just to see if the beer is any good. They don't
say much about cooling and I figured they mix the concentrated wort at
lower temps then dilute to volume with cold water, and that dilution
provides the cold break.
 
D

default

Guest
On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 15:17:09 +1100, "Someone" <Someone@Somewhere.com>
wrote:

Pruned
>
>The starting temp was 24 degrees, i do have a big spoon to mix the contents,
>but it doesn't aerated much.
>i saw a smilular posting on this subject and a guy said to use a nice big
>whisk, so i'll give that a wearl.
>

24 is a good pitching temperature.

As Al Klein mentioned, you want to get the temp of the concentrated
wort down quickly (after it is mixed). One method is to put the
kettle in a sink full of cold water and mix the contents of the kettle
periodically and the contents of the sink to improve the heat transfer
and avoid stratification.

If you have a convenient snow bank or bucket of ice or ice water so
much the better.

The reason you're trying for the quick temperature drop (cold break)
is to avoid "cold/chill haze" or just plain cloudy beer. The quick
temperature change causes proteins to drop out of suspension among
other things.

avoid getting air into the hot wort - mix don't splash

It is important to avoid getting air into the hot wort. The wort,
while hot, is subject to oxidation. Aeration dissolves oxygen into
the wort, oxidation is when oxygen binds with the molecules of
starches and proteins and changes them chemically - and alters the
flavor in a disagreeable way. Most of the instructions I've read say
the likelihood of oxidation drops when the temperature is below 80F
(26-27C?)

A wire wisk is one way to incorporate air in the cooled wort. I like
to cook and do use a wisk, but that seems like doing it the hard way.
I use carboys as fermenters and fill them with cold water from a
garden hose. The high pressure spray from the hose adds a lot of air
to the wort/water and helps mix it. Some brewers use an aquarium air
stone and pump (which can add contaminants if one isn't careful).
Shaking it is another option (although I don't know if I'd to that to
a plastic bucket).

Boiling water or heating it drives out the dissolved gases.

Yeah, the yeast starter is just a mini batch of weak un hopped wort
that is prepared before pitching to get the yeast alive and happy.
That whole thing gets dumped into the wort (or some folks claim to use
just the top liquid portion - not the solids in the bottom of the pot
- I use it all) The top portion contains fewer dead yeast cells - to
their way of thinking, but some folks keep a starter going for months
or years, I just do it for ~7-12 hours as a rule, and figure that tiny
quantity of dead yeast won't matter in the scheme of things.

The dry yeast packets contain a lot of active yeast cells as a rule,
but they are dormant and require time to get started. Liquid yeast
generally contains fewer active cells and requires a starter so they
can reproduce and up the cell count to take over the wort when
pitched. With liquid yeast it is a good practice to get the starter
going 24 hours in advance of pitching to increase the number of active
cells.

Yeast is a living microorganism. It has DNA, Cells with nuclei, and
requires food (sugar and some protein) and favorable living conditions
to reproduce. Treat it with care.

You are working with billions of yeast cells - Each cell can bud off
~4 daughter cells in a several hours and those cells will bud off
their own daughter cells. After a few hours the cell count is rising
exponentially.

Yeast contributes greatly to the taste of beer. Liquid yeast is more
fussy to start, and more costly, but makes for better tasting beer in
my opinion.

You can keep a starter alive and working for months at a time and just
farm what you need from that (read up on the processes). You can also
just put fresh aerated wort onto the yeast at the bottom of the
fermenter (works better with carboys) and kick the new batch off with
the leftover yeast (or just a portion of it). Talk about fast
fermentation . . .

If you keep making beer, you'll develop your own processes and styles
of beer. In time, brewing becomes second nature. You can save some
money - but I doubt many people do it for that reason.

I enjoy the heck out of brewing. It isn't work to me. I like to brew
and bottle on the same day - keeps me busy doing something I like.
 
A

Al Klein

Guest
On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:06:20 -0500, default <none@defaulter.net> said
in alt.beer.home-brewing:

>Yeah, the yeast starter is just a mini batch of weak un hopped wort
>that is prepared before pitching to get the yeast alive and happy.
>That whole thing gets dumped into the wort (or some folks claim to use
>just the top liquid portion - not the solids in the bottom of the pot
>- I use it all) The top portion contains fewer dead yeast cells - to
>their way of thinking, but some folks keep a starter going for months
>or years, I just do it for ~7-12 hours as a rule, and figure that tiny
>quantity of dead yeast won't matter in the scheme of things.


Considering that you end up with a few inches of them at the bottom of
the wort when the fermentation is done, I don't think they cause any
problem.

>You can keep a starter alive and working for months at a time and just
>farm what you need from that (read up on the processes). You can also
>just put fresh aerated wort onto the yeast at the bottom of the
>fermenter (works better with carboys) and kick the new batch off with
>the leftover yeast (or just a portion of it). Talk about fast
>fermentation . . .


And you can freeze yeast. There are instructions all over the web.
You use glycerine to keep the cell walls from bursting.

>If you keep making beer, you'll develop your own processes and styles
>of beer. In time, brewing becomes second nature. You can save some
>money - but I doubt many people do it for that reason.


I find that I can buy beer cheaper than I can make it. But I can't
buy *good* beer as cheaply as I can make it.
 
A

Al Klein

Guest
On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 08:25:38 -0500, default <none@defaulter.net> said
in alt.beer.home-brewing:

>I guess I've been reading too many of these "no boil" instructions. I
>want to try it myself just to see if the beer is any good. They don't
>say much about cooling and I figured they mix the concentrated wort at
>lower temps then dilute to volume with cold water, and that dilution
>provides the cold break.


Lessee ...

2-1/2 gallons at boiling added to 2-1/2 gallons at, say 40F. (Or any
50% boil.) The resultant temp would be around 125F. It would
probably take a few hours to come down to 68F by itself. Anyone for
bubble gum?

I'd still run a chiller on that. They're not that expensive to make
that one should ruin a brew that costs at least as much.
 
D

default

Guest
On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 17:01:00 GMT, Al Klein <rukbat@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 08:25:38 -0500, default <none@defaulter.net> said
>in alt.beer.home-brewing:
>
>>I guess I've been reading too many of these "no boil" instructions. I
>>want to try it myself just to see if the beer is any good. They don't
>>say much about cooling and I figured they mix the concentrated wort at
>>lower temps then dilute to volume with cold water, and that dilution
>>provides the cold break.

>
>Lessee ...
>
>2-1/2 gallons at boiling added to 2-1/2 gallons at, say 40F. (Or any
>50% boil.) The resultant temp would be around 125F. It would
>probably take a few hours to come down to 68F by itself. Anyone for
>bubble gum?
>
>I'd still run a chiller on that. They're not that expensive to make
>that one should ruin a brew that costs at least as much.


I agree. Some of the instructions, on line, call for mixing some very
concentrated wort at temperatures of 140-160.

Someone indicated that he was only boiling 2 liters of water for a 23
liter batch. By the time he gets the cans in and dissolves the DME
(assuming it will go into solution at that concentration) he probably
doesn't require a lot of cooling.

Using DME and no boil, I think I'd get the DME dissolved first then
add the LME, and heat the LME cans so they will pour.

As I understand it the technique is to start with hot water simply to
get the LME out of the cans and mixed into solution with a little
water, from there, it is right into the fermenter and add cold water
to volume and pitch.

No boil is a "quick and dirty" - or quick and easy way to make beer.
Instant beer.
 
D

default

Guest
On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 16:57:07 GMT, Al Klein <rukbat@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:06:20 -0500, default <none@defaulter.net> said
>in alt.beer.home-brewing:
>
>>Yeah, the yeast starter is just a mini batch of weak un hopped wort
>>that is prepared before pitching to get the yeast alive and happy.
>>That whole thing gets dumped into the wort (or some folks claim to use
>>just the top liquid portion - not the solids in the bottom of the pot
>>- I use it all) The top portion contains fewer dead yeast cells - to
>>their way of thinking, but some folks keep a starter going for months
>>or years, I just do it for ~7-12 hours as a rule, and figure that tiny
>>quantity of dead yeast won't matter in the scheme of things.

>
>Considering that you end up with a few inches of them at the bottom of
>the wort when the fermentation is done, I don't think they cause any
>problem.


Agreed. There are those folks who think a week old gallon size
starter is the way to beer . . . in that situation they may be right
about using only the top liquid.
>
>>You can keep a starter alive and working for months at a time and just
>>farm what you need from that (read up on the processes). You can also
>>just put fresh aerated wort onto the yeast at the bottom of the
>>fermenter (works better with carboys) and kick the new batch off with
>>the leftover yeast (or just a portion of it). Talk about fast
>>fermentation . . .

>
>And you can freeze yeast. There are instructions all over the web.
>You use glycerine to keep the cell walls from bursting.


I froze some a long time ago, sans glycerine, and it still worked, but
from the sluggish start it was obvious the viability suffered.
Haven't tried glycerine.

>
>>If you keep making beer, you'll develop your own processes and styles
>>of beer. In time, brewing becomes second nature. You can save some
>>money - but I doubt many people do it for that reason.

>
>I find that I can buy beer cheaper than I can make it. But I can't
>buy *good* beer as cheaply as I can make it.


Right on.

I can't buy it for less - but then you have to define "beer." I can
get Bud etc. for some pretty low prices, but that ain't beer. That's
just some stuff you drink when very thirsty, and the water is unsafe
to drink, or maybe to avoid insulting an ignorant host.

Budweiser is still preferable to typhoid, giardia, shistomiosis, sea
water, dog piss, etc.

Corona, Heinekin, and other light beers are a bit more than some of my
homebrews. 80 cents to $1 a bottle for commercial, 50 cents to $1 for
homebrew. Real imported porter is still $2.50 a pint bottle.
 
A

Al Klein

Guest
On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 14:23:56 -0500, default <none@defaulter.net> said
in alt.beer.home-brewing:

>On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 16:57:07 GMT, Al Klein <rukbat@verizon.net> wrote:


>>Considering that you end up with a few inches of them at the bottom of
>>the wort when the fermentation is done, I don't think they cause any
>>problem.


>Agreed. There are those folks who think a week old gallon size
>starter is the way to beer . . . in that situation they may be right
>about using only the top liquid.


I've used the entire yeast cake from one brew to start another one -
just poured the new wort onto the old yeast. Granted I'm a hophead,
but it didn't seem to make any difference.

>>And you can freeze yeast. There are instructions all over the web.
>>You use glycerine to keep the cell walls from bursting.


>I froze some a long time ago, sans glycerine, and it still worked, but
>from the sluggish start it was obvious the viability suffered.
>Haven't tried glycerine.


A day in weak wort and it starts up normally. At least S04 does for
me, but then S04 starts like Vesuvius.

>I can't buy it for less - but then you have to define "beer." I can
>get Bud etc. for some pretty low prices, but that ain't beer. That's
>just some stuff you drink


It may be stuff YOU drink. It's not stuff I drink. :)

>when very thirsty, and the water is unsafe to drink


I think I'd rather be thirsty.

>or maybe to avoid insulting an ignorant host.


Anyone who 'hosts' me knows my taste. If there's nothing else, they
can always grab a 6 pack of SNPA in the supermarket. It's not that
great, but it's not yellow water.

>Budweiser is still preferable to typhoid, giardia, shistomiosis, sea
>water, dog piss, etc.


Oh, I thought Bud *was* dog piss - just degraded dog piss.
 
A

Al Klein

Guest
On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 14:03:13 -0500, default <none@defaulter.net> said
in alt.beer.home-brewing:

>No boil is a "quick and dirty" - or quick and easy way to make beer.
>Instant beer.


Only if the LME was boiled before it was concentrated. If it wasn't,
there's no hop flavor. Hops added without boiling don't add much
flavor or bitterness.
 
D

Denny Conn

Guest
default wrote:

> Yeah, the yeast starter is just a mini batch of weak un hopped wort
> that is prepared before pitching to get the yeast alive and happy.
> That whole thing gets dumped into the wort (or some folks claim to use
> just the top liquid portion - not the solids in the bottom of the pot
> - I use it all) The top portion contains fewer dead yeast cells - to
> their way of thinking, but some folks keep a starter going for months
> or years, I just do it for ~7-12 hours as a rule, and figure that tiny
> quantity of dead yeast won't matter in the scheme of things.


Actaully, you'd be better off starting your starters farther in advance
to give the yeast more time to multiply. Then you can decant off the
spent wort on top, and pitch the slurry on the bottom.

> The dry yeast packets contain a lot of active yeast cells as a rule,
> but they are dormant and require time to get started. Liquid yeast
> generally contains fewer active cells and requires a starter so they
> can reproduce and up the cell count to take over the wort when
> pitched. With liquid yeast it is a good practice to get the starter
> going 24 hours in advance of pitching to increase the number of active
> cells.


I prefer to get mine going at least 3-5 days in advance.

> Yeast is a living microorganism. It has DNA, Cells with nuclei, and
> requires food (sugar and some protein) and favorable living conditions
> to reproduce. Treat it with care.
>
> You are working with billions of yeast cells - Each cell can bud off
> ~4 daughter cells in a several hours and those cells will bud off
> their own daughter cells. After a few hours the cell count is rising
> exponentially.
>
> Yeast contributes greatly to the taste of beer. Liquid yeast is more
> fussy to start, and more costly, but makes for better tasting beer in
> my opinion.


Well, that's a matter of opinion. You can make fine beer with dry
yeast, too. The problem is that some yeast strains don't take well to
drying, so liquid gives you more variety, not necessarily better
quality.

> You can keep a starter alive and working for months at a time and just
> farm what you need from that (read up on the processes). You can also
> just put fresh aerated wort onto the yeast at the bottom of the
> fermenter (works better with carboys) and kick the new batch off with
> the leftover yeast (or just a portion of it). Talk about fast
> fermentation . . .


Yep..

> If you keep making beer, you'll develop your own processes and styles
> of beer. In time, brewing becomes second nature. You can save some
> money - but I doubt many people do it for that reason.


When you count in your time, I doubt it's cheaper ;)

> I enjoy the heck out of brewing. It isn't work to me. I like to brew
> and bottle on the same day - keeps me busy doing something I like.


You, sir, are a masochist! :)

-------->Denny
--
Life begins at 60 - 1.060, that is.

Reply to denny_at_projectoneaudio_dot_com
 
D

default

Guest
On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 20:28:26 GMT, Al Klein <rukbat@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 14:03:13 -0500, default <none@defaulter.net> said
>in alt.beer.home-brewing:
>
>>No boil is a "quick and dirty" - or quick and easy way to make beer.
>>Instant beer.

>
>Only if the LME was boiled before it was concentrated. If it wasn't,
>there's no hop flavor. Hops added without boiling don't add much
>flavor or bitterness.


Well I donno. The companies, John Bull among others, claim that the
no boil kits are hopped. How well, or if that only means bittering
hops, I wouldn't know.

Seems to me the tricky part would be to keep the hop flavor and aroma
intact and canned. Or they may just be ignoring the hops aroma
altogether.

Surely if we can put a man on the moon . . . Oh, JB is the UK . . .

Well, if they can make an SST . . . Oh, the French helped.

OK, I've got it, the Brits invented radar and as a consequence the
semiconductor diode, which made computers possible. They can probably
figure out a way to get the hops flavor and aroma in the cans.

Maybe this is an attempt to keep selling the branded canned LME in the
face of competition from generic DME based kits, or perhaps it is
aimed at the first time brewers.

There's a lot to learn to make outstanding beer - the "no boil" may be
just the ticket to get someone into the hobby with a minimal outlay in
cost and only rudimentary knowledge. Then too it may just be clever
marketing - a way to give bud drinkers bragging rights, and make lots
of money.

I wanted to try it myself, then form an opinion.

Unless empty glass bottles fall out of the sky, or I go on a record
breaking bender, it'll have to wait until next year - this year is
booked.
 
D

default

Guest
On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 20:26:24 GMT, Al Klein <rukbat@verizon.net> wrote:

>I've used the entire yeast cake from one brew to start another one -
>just poured the new wort onto the old yeast. Granted I'm a hophead,
>but it didn't seem to make any difference.


Been there too. I once kept it up through three batches using the
secondary fermentation to start the next new batch. I didn't see any
of the disadvantages they say can happen. (but them that say that
sell yeast - go figure)
Humans have been making beer from c.4000 BC, I don't imagine it was
great beer, but how tricky can it be? Beer happens.

>>I can't buy it for less - but then you have to define "beer." I can
>>get Bud etc. for some pretty low prices, but that ain't beer. That's
>>just some stuff you drink

>
>It may be stuff YOU drink. It's not stuff I drink. :)


I'm sorry. I didn't mean to question your taste or judgement. I
should have written. "That's just some stuff one might drink, etc.."
>
>>when very thirsty, and the water is unsafe to drink

>
>I think I'd rather be thirsty.


Think: "Life threatening thirsty," (bloodshot eyes, severe
dehydration, sunburn, clawing at the burning Saharan sand, moments to
live) makes more sense that way.
>
>>or maybe to avoid insulting an ignorant host.

>
>Anyone who 'hosts' me knows my taste. If there's nothing else, they
>can always grab a 6 pack of SNPA in the supermarket. It's not that
>great, but it's not yellow water.


There may be some folks in a socially sensitive situation where a PC
(politically convenient) response like drinking bud and acting
appreciative is expected. (that's some good acting) I couldn't pull
it off.

>
>>Budweiser is still preferable to typhoid, giardia, shistomiosis, sea
>>water, dog piss, etc.

>
>Oh, I thought Bud *was* dog piss - just degraded dog piss.


I thought weasel piss.

Someone needs too put together a chart similar to the "electromagnetic
spectrum" charts in schools with beers on them. Weasel Piss to
Ambrosia scale.
 
S

Someone

Guest
"default" <none@defaulter.net> wrote in message
news:b2ne21tea73lgljagaj90pub5kl9dklfuj@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 17:01:00 GMT, Al Klein <rukbat@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 08:25:38 -0500, default <none@defaulter.net> said
>>in alt.beer.home-brewing:
>>
>>>I guess I've been reading too many of these "no boil" instructions. I
>>>want to try it myself just to see if the beer is any good. They don't
>>>say much about cooling and I figured they mix the concentrated wort at
>>>lower temps then dilute to volume with cold water, and that dilution
>>>provides the cold break.

>>
>>Lessee ...
>>
>>2-1/2 gallons at boiling added to 2-1/2 gallons at, say 40F. (Or any
>>50% boil.) The resultant temp would be around 125F. It would
>>probably take a few hours to come down to 68F by itself. Anyone for
>>bubble gum?
>>
>>I'd still run a chiller on that. They're not that expensive to make
>>that one should ruin a brew that costs at least as much.

>
> I agree. Some of the instructions, on line, call for mixing some very
> concentrated wort at temperatures of 140-160.
>
> Someone indicated that he was only boiling 2 liters of water for a 23
> liter batch. By the time he gets the cans in and dissolves the DME
> (assuming it will go into solution at that concentration) he probably
> doesn't require a lot of cooling.
>
> Using DME and no boil, I think I'd get the DME dissolved first then
> add the LME, and heat the LME cans so they will pour.
>

Yep,
i soak the can for 15 minutes in hot water,
in the meantime i add the sugar/malt to the boiled water and mix it
througly.
then i add the can to the mix, there is still some hops stuck to the side of
the can,
i just fill the can with boiled water (1lt) let it soak for a couple of
minutes and then add that.
so 3 lt of boiling water all up.
Then i add 20 lt of cold tap water (uaually)

if i were to boil as much water as you guys i'd never get the fermentator to
cool down fast enough, even with this method the wort is at 30 - 34 degrees
C after mixing.
The last brew i kicked of yesturday i used 20 lt of fridge water, that got
the wort down to 24 degrees C (much to the discuss of the wife using the
whole fridge to chill water, beer is food in my opinion), then i sat the
fermentator in a tub of ice, it took about 3 hours to cool to 18 degreec C
when i pitched the yeast.

next time i'll try adding some nice big ice blocks to the mix and just back
the water off a little

So i'll need to stick to this method untill i get my cooling technique
right. But i do think you guys are right you would get a better beer from
boiling more water, just the fact that it would mix better with a greater
volume of the wort.

Any more ideas on colling the wort would be greatly appriciated.

> As I understand it the technique is to start with hot water simply to
> get the LME out of the cans and mixed into solution with a little
> water, from there, it is right into the fermenter and add cold water
> to volume and pitch.
>
> No boil is a "quick and dirty" - or quick and easy way to make beer.
> Instant beer.
 
S

Someone

Guest
"Al Klein" <rukbat@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:4pse21palhk0vjmudbsmedhbopkvv6ue0i@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 14:03:13 -0500, default <none@defaulter.net> said
> in alt.beer.home-brewing:
>
>>No boil is a "quick and dirty" - or quick and easy way to make beer.
>>Instant beer.

>
> Only if the LME was boiled before it was concentrated. If it wasn't,
> there's no hop flavor. Hops added without boiling don't add much
> flavor or bitterness.


I'll give this a whirl, but i haven't had a problem with flavour, as opposed
to commercial beers.

Mark
 
S

Someone

Guest
"default" <none@defaulter.net> wrote in message
news:i4ve21t5cs2lkhnhcqfkseab4k22v76oba@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 20:28:26 GMT, Al Klein <rukbat@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 14:03:13 -0500, default <none@defaulter.net> said
>>in alt.beer.home-brewing:
>>
>>>No boil is a "quick and dirty" - or quick and easy way to make beer.
>>>Instant beer.

>>
>>Only if the LME was boiled before it was concentrated. If it wasn't,
>>there's no hop flavor. Hops added without boiling don't add much
>>flavor or bitterness.

>
> Well I donno. The companies, John Bull among others, claim that the
> no boil kits are hopped. How well, or if that only means bittering
> hops, I wouldn't know.
>
> Seems to me the tricky part would be to keep the hop flavor and aroma
> intact and canned. Or they may just be ignoring the hops aroma
> altogether.
>
> Surely if we can put a man on the moon . . . Oh, JB is the UK . . .
>
> Well, if they can make an SST . . . Oh, the French helped.
>
> OK, I've got it, the Brits invented radar and as a consequence the
> semiconductor diode, which made computers possible. They can probably
> figure out a way to get the hops flavor and aroma in the cans.
>
> Maybe this is an attempt to keep selling the branded canned LME in the
> face of competition from generic DME based kits, or perhaps it is
> aimed at the first time brewers.


possibaly, but no matter what brand i go for that all have the same
instructions, Coopers, Brewiser, Baccus & Barley doesn't matter. but the
store i goto also has a web site www.grainandgrape.com.au and their recipies
involve boiling the same hops that i'm using.

due to my cooling problem how little water do you think i could boild the
hops in?

>
> There's a lot to learn to make outstanding beer - the "no boil" may be
> just the ticket to get someone into the hobby with a minimal outlay in
> cost and only rudimentary knowledge. Then too it may just be clever
> marketing - a way to give bud drinkers bragging rights, and make lots
> of money.
>
> I wanted to try it myself, then form an opinion.
>
> Unless empty glass bottles fall out of the sky, or I go on a record
> breaking bender, it'll have to wait until next year - this year is
> booked.


you need an Aussie mate, then you'll have more empty bottles then you'll
know what to do with :)
>
 
D

default

Guest
On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 13:21:24 -0800, Denny Conn <me@privacy.net> wrote:

>default wrote:
>
>> Yeah, the yeast starter is just a mini batch of weak un hopped wort
>> that is prepared before pitching to get the yeast alive and happy.
>> That whole thing gets dumped into the wort (or some folks claim to use
>> just the top liquid portion - not the solids in the bottom of the pot
>> - I use it all) The top portion contains fewer dead yeast cells - to
>> their way of thinking, but some folks keep a starter going for months
>> or years, I just do it for ~7-12 hours as a rule, and figure that tiny
>> quantity of dead yeast won't matter in the scheme of things.

>
>Actaully, you'd be better off starting your starters farther in advance
>to give the yeast more time to multiply. Then you can decant off the
>spent wort on top, and pitch the slurry on the bottom.
>
>> The dry yeast packets contain a lot of active yeast cells as a rule,
>> but they are dormant and require time to get started. Liquid yeast
>> generally contains fewer active cells and requires a starter so they
>> can reproduce and up the cell count to take over the wort when
>> pitched. With liquid yeast it is a good practice to get the starter
>> going 24 hours in advance of pitching to increase the number of active
>> cells.

>
>I prefer to get mine going at least 3-5 days in advance.


I try everything then settle on what works best for me. I'm sure you
get excellent results with 3-5 days. Viva la difference.
>
>> Yeast is a living microorganism. It has DNA, Cells with nuclei, and
>> requires food (sugar and some protein) and favorable living conditions
>> to reproduce. Treat it with care.
>>
>> You are working with billions of yeast cells - Each cell can bud off
>> ~4 daughter cells in a several hours and those cells will bud off
>> their own daughter cells. After a few hours the cell count is rising
>> exponentially.
>>
>> Yeast contributes greatly to the taste of beer. Liquid yeast is more
>> fussy to start, and more costly, but makes for better tasting beer in
>> my opinion.

>
>Well, that's a matter of opinion. You can make fine beer with dry
>yeast, too. The problem is that some yeast strains don't take well to
>drying, so liquid gives you more variety, not necessarily better
>quality.
>

I find all of the dried yeasts to be more neutral in taste. They do
make great beer, and are more consistent batch to batch. The liquids
are never quite the same batch to batch and variety is the spice of
life. Viva la difference.

>> You can keep a starter alive and working for months at a time and just
>> farm what you need from that (read up on the processes). You can also
>> just put fresh aerated wort onto the yeast at the bottom of the
>> fermenter (works better with carboys) and kick the new batch off with
>> the leftover yeast (or just a portion of it). Talk about fast
>> fermentation . . .

>
>Yep..
>
>> If you keep making beer, you'll develop your own processes and styles
>> of beer. In time, brewing becomes second nature. You can save some
>> money - but I doubt many people do it for that reason.

>
>When you count in your time, I doubt it's cheaper ;)


Not if one is enjoying the time spent. It's bound to be cheaper, I'm
not looking to clone Budweiser.
>
>> I enjoy the heck out of brewing. It isn't work to me. I like to brew
>> and bottle on the same day - keeps me busy doing something I like.

>
>You, sir, are a masochist! :)
>

A fridge full of stalwart homebrew soldiers standing by to assist as
necessary, a little Vivaldi on the stereo, and the proper attitude . .
.. What is your technique?

Wine Women and Song - happiness is the only goal worth pursuing.
 
Top